jrt1045
Posts:363
 |
| 09/03/2013 04:39 PM |
|
| Utah isn't exactly prime time in the whole scheme of things |
|
|
|
|
nightfend
Posts:48
|
| 09/03/2013 05:12 PM |
|
I do not think Horner is the only one doping. I don't really believe any of the top 5 are clean. Horner is simply a good climber who is finally being given a Captain's role and allowed to go for stage wins. This has only been the case the last 3 years or so. Before that he was a domestique that was paid to help others.
And, let's face it, he has had really awful luck being taken down by other riders in crashes. Two years ago when he crashed at the TdF and had the concussion, he was flying! Anyone remember the climb at ToC that year?
|
|
|
|
|
pabiker
Posts:80
|
| 09/03/2013 08:26 PM |
|
While it is likely true that we are continually evolving. It is certainly not happening at a pace that would make a difference in a sport that is less than 200 years old.
Most of the gains you are likely referring to are not evolutionary, but due to changes in our environment such as: better diet, medical care, improved working conditions, more leisure time, equipment and training.
The evolutionary changes in the last 10,000 years or so are miniscule.
I'll 2nd that comparing the Vuelta to ToU doesn't make sense. After all, Tommy D won the ToU. |
|
|
|
|
Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
|
| 09/03/2013 09:04 PM |
|
Bob, I wasn't saying you were cheering on the doping.....I meant you were cheering on the racing. I fully get we have a differ perspective n doping in the sport, and I don't think either of us will change the other's mind. Which is fine w/ me!!
And like others have said, the ToU is not even close to the Vuelta. Utah is a glorified domestic race, not even close to the caliber of the Vuelta.
The greatest cyclists in the history of the sport were not able to reverse the effects of Father Time, but somehow Horner has found the fabled "Fountain of Youth" and is now able to do things he couldn't do when he was 10 years younger.
Things that make you go "Hmmmmmm....."
|
|
| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
|
|
|
bobswire
Posts:304
|
| 09/03/2013 09:06 PM |
|
Show me where I compared it to the Vuelta PA? I said he used it for training at altitude, no straw dogs allowed. It would be like me calling you out for saying you raced against Ben King rather than King happened to be participating in a race you did. Get my drift? The older I get the crankier I get so you better watch your manners around me.
Cool video of the new bike path on the Eastern Side of the Bay Bridge.
HERE
|
|
|
|
|
Yo Mike
Posts:338
|
| 09/03/2013 09:14 PM |
|
+1 PA on evolution
Horner is in contract drive mode since he is not yet signed by TREK for 2014. Horner on the podium at the Vuelta and winning at the Worlds in Florence should seal the deal for him, one way or the other.
Zoltemelk did it at age 39. Horner may be equally amazing at 41. |
|
|
|
|
pabiker
Posts:80
|
| 09/03/2013 09:16 PM |
|
BS Bob, you posted that top 10 GC from ToU showing that Horner "didn't come from out of nowhere". That top 10 that also included Jamis and 5-hour Energy riders - no exactly top shelf competition.
I absolutely did race against Ben King and Joe Dumbrowski - mass start race, no categories, no BS.
If I felt so inclined I coulda cranked up to their group for a couple miles of road at the start - kinda like the TdF fans with antler helmets running by the pros, but that's not my style. |
|
|
|
|
Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
|
| 09/03/2013 10:00 PM |
|
Posted By Michael Merva on 09/03/2013 09:14 PM
+1 PA on evolution
Horner is in contract drive mode since he is not yet signed by TREK for 2014. Horner on the podium at the Vuelta and winning at the Worlds in Florence should seal the deal for him, one way or the other.
Zoltemelk did it at age 39. Horner may be equally amazing at 41.
Are we seriously now comparing Horner to Joop? If so, let's compare their palamares up to that point as well.
Not even close to being the same..... |
|
| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
|
|
|
Orange Crush
Posts:4499
|
| 09/03/2013 10:07 PM |
|
Posted By pa biker on 09/03/2013 08:26 PM
While it is likely true that we are continually evolving. It is certainly not happening at a pace that would make a difference in a sport that is less than 200 years old.
Most of the gains you are likely referring to are not evolutionary, but due to changes in our environment such as: better diet, medical care, improved working conditions, more leisure time, equipment and training.
The evolutionary changes in the last 10,000 years or so are miniscule.
Yes, evolving as in how we live, not as in being further removed from our monkey cousins. This will take a bit longer.
He may very well be #15, but just like some push the envelope at young age, the Sagan's and Moreno Moser's of this world, there's also the notion of late bloomers. Give me some hope CK!
And who says he's a GT contender? So far he's done a great 1 week race, which can be accounted for by his relative freshness, and is within his tool set. If he keeps this up for another 2 weeks, then you certainly have my raised eyebrow. But I strongly doubt it.
|
|
|
|
|
Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
|
| 09/03/2013 10:35 PM |
|
Agreed 100% on your last paragraph.....I am getting accused of "mental gymnastics" on ST for daring to int out that there are still 2 weeks to go and he isn't really "contending"....yet.
Look at Ritchie Porte in July....lying a strong 2nd at about the same point in time. He then blows up and disappears from the GC. Sure, he was a domestique, but the point is that being high in the GC after one week ain't the same thing as being high in the GC during the third week. |
|
| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
|
|
|
RNDDUDE
Posts:78
|
| 09/04/2013 12:52 AM |
|
| I will throw this out just because no one has said it, could it be because most of these guys who used to beat him frequently in the past aren't now, because they also aren't doping like they used to? |
|
| Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistant one. -Albert Einstein |
|
|
CERV
Posts:151
|
| 09/04/2013 02:11 AM |
|
Cycling never fails to disappoint. i'm finding this whole Vuelta to be quite entertaining. Most of the credit for that has to be given to Horner.
Seeing an 'almost 42' year old (I love how often it's reported as that, instead of as a 41 year old) win a GT would be pretty awesome.
As far as 'believability' goes, I would still rate this as more believable than Froome, for whatever that's worth. Horner's at least been present in the last group standing on a lot of big climbs for a lot of years. |
|
|
|
|
Yo Mike
Posts:338
|
| 09/04/2013 07:08 AM |
|
@CK
I guess I should have added
/sarcasm
at the end of my previous post.
NO WAY does Horner approach Joop Z, except in maybe one way: Joop was not pure as the driven snow himself.
Horner's recent success: contract drive, late season start, perhaps some underestimation by the peloton, and undeniably considerable talent........but he's not gonna win the Vuelta any more than he's gonna wear WC stripes. |
|
|
|
|
Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
|
| 09/04/2013 08:57 AM |
|
@ Yo Mike - gotcha, my bad.
@ rnddude - I get the theory but it breaks down fr a few reasons. 1) that means that Horner is / was a special talent that even at the age if 41 he can beat guys 10 years younger, who are in the prime of their careers. 2) Horner is widely believed to have been Rider #15. 3) add the two together - if he was such a special talent and he was rider 15, then why didn't he crush everyone earlier?
|
|
| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
|
|
|
Orange Crush
Posts:4499
|
| 09/04/2013 11:21 AM |
|
I am guessing Horner did Nibali a big favor with the Stage 10 win and leader's jersey or maybe Nibali played it that way (in which case hats off to him). Horner and Co get to enjoy that red jersey most likely through week 2 while Nibali saves his troops for Stage 14-16 where the real pecking order will be established. THat is of course unless Horner loses that jersey today already as he seems to have predicted himself I now read.
Cerv - agree. |
|
|
|
|