Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 05/27/2014 03:21 PM |
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Yeah, its a 25km climbing TT, a beast.
I rode Grappa in 2012; the guy that killed me it the Dolomiti in 2010; I put 15 minutes into him and he spent some time puking before ordering a beer in the Rifugio up top. Its that kind of TT. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 05/27/2014 04:40 PM |
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| I have a gripe with the Directors bitching about the "neutralized" descent. I learned when I was a cat 4 that a neutral descent means, "GET YOUR ASS TO THE FRONT" because people will try and get away/position themselves to attack as soon as they are allowed. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 05/27/2014 10:09 PM |
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| That's a perfectly good lesson if you're descending the local moles heap on a hot mid-summer night Keith :-) |
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79pmooney
Posts:3189
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| 05/28/2014 12:17 AM |
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Seems to me the instructions were pretty simple: don't pass the motorcycle with the red flag. Sounds like guys stopped who never saw that bike. Huh? And Quintana? "Till I see that bike, I'm racing." Yeah!
OC, that same thinking Keith talk about plays out every year at the Classics. The winners aren't saying "I'd better ease up and drift back because the dangerous stretch is coming".
Ben |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 05/28/2014 09:26 AM |
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| Exactly Ben. Neutralized doesn't mean "slow down" by any means, IMHO. It certainly doesn't mean lose your position in the pack. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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ChinookPass
Posts:809
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| 05/28/2014 11:18 AM |
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| In the cat 4's, are you referring to the old attack in the feedzone trick? Never did it, but followed some that turned out to be quite lucrative. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 05/28/2014 11:45 AM |
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Uh Ben - Quintana passed that motor bike with red flag ...after he got word those ahead of him were doing same. Can't blame him, in top sport you bend the rules to the extent you can get away with. Its up to the officiating to enforce the rules. Fail # 1.
In classics it race on, everyone knows its race on, crystal clear; that comparison doesn't stack up. This is a case were the officiating reversed their own decision under pressure, creating chaos and confusion. Rule #1 of strong officiating, you make a decision, you stick with it. Fail # 2.
If the officials had stuck with their original decision to neutralize and actually enforce it, those stopping to gear up would have caught up to motorbike assuming their original position, no problem. |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 05/28/2014 11:45 AM |
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Posted By Keith Jackson on 05/28/2014 09:26 AM
Exactly Ben. Neutralized doesn't mean "slow down" by any means, IMHO. It certainly doesn't mean lose your position in the pack.
Yellow flag in auto racing means you get a free pass to close the gap to the car in front of you. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 05/28/2014 11:52 AM |
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Yeah, believe me I think that they way these situations are handled is far from ideal. But knowing how things work...maintain your position especially if you are in contention or with contenders.
I did a race that started with a two mile descent. The event started in a driving rain so the neutralized the descent. So the race starts...and it is a fight for the front to be in position at the bottom for the first climb. I ended up at the back. Race over. Learned my lesson that day. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 05/28/2014 12:42 PM |
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OC, have you seen any pics of Quintana (or verified accounts) in front of the rd flag? Seen a few with him and Rolland clearly behind the red flag, but not in front (yet).
If he went in reorient of he he flag, then it is a different story. If he stated behind the flag, but the flag was still moving at a decent clip, well....too bad for everyone else.
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 05/28/2014 12:50 PM |
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"There are images taken from the RAI broadcast that show Movistar riders slipping past a motorcycle with a red flag still in the vertical position. What’s unclear was if there were other motorcycles ahead of them at that moment."
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/05/news/giro-peloton-remains-divided-in-aftermath-of-stelvio-controversy_329884
Of course the organizers now claim that those flags were just meant to indicate dangerous turns, and the UCI claims they were never consulted on the decision and should have been the ones making the call. Weak sauce upon weak sauce on the officiating and organization end. |
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stronz
Posts:447
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| 05/28/2014 01:32 PM |
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| I like Ryder's question. Please tell me what a neutralized descent is? So everyone who busted their butts up the Stelvio in the snow and crested in the first group gets that effort erased and its gruppo compatto on the way down? Not fair -- the concept of a neutralized descent in the middle of a stage is inherently unsound. Couldnt have been fair anyway you slice it. |
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stronz
Posts:447
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| 05/28/2014 02:29 PM |
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| On second thought -- here's what they should have done: Stopped the stage atop the Stelvio. Should have said ok this descent might just be lethal. Still want an uphill finish. Let em duke it out up the Stelvio and then call it a day. No descent in the freezing rain - case closed. Should have made that decision 30-40k from the stelvio which they could have done. |
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Master50
Posts:340
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| 05/28/2014 10:09 PM |
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What does a red flag raised by a race marshal mean? what if it is raised by a Commissaire?
I think 1 means warning and the other means don't pass. Context matters. Why does the flag in that picture show up better than the tail lights? What does a rider see from the ground with snow in his face and likely a cycling cap too?
In the end I think the results are as they should be
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 05/28/2014 10:27 PM |
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Posted By Mike Shea on 05/28/2014 10:09 PM
In the end I think the results are as they should be
I agree but that is not the point of the thread.
How come such chaos was allowed to ensue? How come organizers can just make up rules that are nowhere to be found in any UCI race book? How come this "neutralization" was communicated on race radio without proper consultation with commisionaires? What were the UCI commissaires doing when all this happened? In the end, this farce is a major black eye for Giro and UCI. We urgently need a tweet from Cookson  |
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