Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/21/2019 01:01 PM |
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| My main and only problem with the PC stuff is that it keeps our eyes off the ball when it comes to big ticket items. Like Trudeau's role in SNC Lavalin affair; a clear case of corruption. Yes ideally we'd be able to put emphasis on both but public and media tend to me enthralled by easy imagery of black face instead of focusing on the more complex items that aren't as sexy. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/21/2019 02:26 PM |
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Posted By Frederick Jones on 10/21/2019 10:55 AM
Fair enough. I'd stick a hot poker in my eye before I'd vote for him. But I still see people voting with their feet. They aren't bothered by his narcissistic antics as much as others. Maybe deep down they are racists, but I see it as they are afraid due to cultural and economic uncertainty. Which Trump plays like a fiddle. And some are just gullible. Some of these folks voted for Obama, really. These swing and middle ground voters will pick the next pres.
We got the same issues here basically. People voting Conservative to protest Trudeau but forgetting that the Cons are the party who last time around pulled the rug underneath democracy by prorogueing parliament. Of course here in Canuckistan never seem as dramatic as south of 49th and maybe they aren't.
On the hot poker in the eye, I recommend watching John Wick episode 3. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2886
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| 10/22/2019 12:20 AM |
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Yes the PC and cultural identity enthrallment is manna from heaven for Trump.
PS Congrats to the Canadian PM, he survived, but with a minority if I understand correctly. |
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thinline
Posts:325
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| 10/23/2019 10:50 AM |
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I heard an interesting remark the other day. Something along the lines of "If you stand in the middle of the road you get hit by cars coming from both directions."
Fingers crossed. Trump is a menace to all that is decent.
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/23/2019 12:18 PM |
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| LSD - Yes Trudeau survived but liberals lost of lot of seats. Most of that vote share shifted to more progressive parties to the liberals left. Some of it went to Cons to their right. The country is getting more polarized, with coast and urban areas becoming increasingly left leaning and the heartland and rural areas becoming more right leaning. The middle ground is deflating, as it is elsewhere, and its that same trend/risk that your Democrats need to consider in the primaries. |
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Cranky Tom
Posts:58
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| 10/23/2019 03:28 PM |
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I thought this article and the paper it is about were pretty interesting and make some valid points about the reasons why our democracy is where it is.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/08/shawn-rosenberg-democracy-228045
As others have pointed out, Trump is a symptom of a bigger problem. He's not the cause (but he is a complete disaster and he needs to go). Also, while the article focuses on these issues giving rise to right wing extremism, I think they are giving rise to extremism on both the right and the left which leaves us moderates high and dry. |
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/24/2019 02:51 PM |
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I would love someone to truly explain to me what "moderate" means culturally, and what it means to them individually.
Specifics.
Not trying to be snarky, but the target keeps moving.
I used to consider myself moderate and then I realized that I was just being a pussy and not standing up for what I truly believe in. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 10/24/2019 07:41 PM |
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Moderate can mean a lot of things....for some it means they are aligned with the central aspects of a given party, but maybe not to the extremes that the majority of their party wants.....so you could be for immigration reform, but not be down with the separation policy of this heinous administration.
I personally prefer use the term “centrist”...and that is because I don’t fit in the overall philosophy of either party. I hold “conservative” positions on some things, but “liberal” positions on others. What I try very hard to do is be intellectually consistent. I will call out leaders from either party if I disagree with them.
Lately, many people try and label me as a “liberal” because I am vehemently opposed to Trump and his Cult of Personality that has taken over the GOP. But being anti-Trump is not the same thing as being a liberal...it is just an easy (lazy?) attempt at classification.
What I am NOT afraid to do is stand up for my beliefs....being a centrist does NOT mean I am without strong beliefs or I try and straddle a philosophical fence. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/24/2019 07:47 PM |
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The target has moved Huck.
Back in the New Deal days Sanders would have been well within the normal range of political spectrum.
Reagan managed to push that spectrum way off to right with Democrats mostly meekly following along with that push.
So now Sanders, AOC and to a lesser degree Warren are finding themselves on the fringe of that spectrum. The challenge before you guys is to move that spectrum back to its normal range. Reagan showed a big push is possible (it was doubted at time), no reason it can't be pushed back.
As it stands your politics is missing an entire half of what voters in most other countries have on offer. Hence that enthusiasm behind supporters of those three. They are providing the missing piece. And this is where Sanders is so important. Not so much his candidacy. But continuing to push that left boundary. Providing the missing piece. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 10/24/2019 08:10 PM |
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There is no doubt that on the international political spectrum, the US is much further to the right than other countries...whether that can be easily moved is up for debate.
It definitely will NOT be moved in the short-term and adopting a true left-wing position will all but ensure that Trump gets re-elected. The only thing that matters in 2020 is defeating Trump. Policy is secondary in 2020. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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zootracer
Posts:835
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| 10/24/2019 08:37 PM |
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| It's nice we can discuss politics on this site and keep it civil. My wife and I try to avoid talking about politics in social situations. We live in an area with a large number of Trump suporters. Either of us like The Donald. Agree, best thing to do is to vote him out of office. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/24/2019 08:53 PM |
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| CK. Reagan was defeated in 1976 primaries as being too radical. Four years later he was president. Things can go quick and the momentum for a push to left has been building steadily. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 10/25/2019 08:41 AM |
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The circumstances were totally different in 1976....the GOP was still reeling from Nixon and Watergate. Moreover, reagan was waging a primary battle against a sitting (albeit unelected) President. Despite that, he damn near pulled it off.
And Reagan's policies were not that dramatically different than his true Republican predecessor (Nixon). So 1980 was really the outcome of the foundation he laid in 1976. It isn't that the party suddenly lurcehd to the right...they just found their stride, greatly benefited by a crumbling economy, international events and an opponent widely seen as ineffective.
Since that time, the US has become even more conservative....the idea that you can get enough people in the swing states to embrace an left-wing platform is just not realistic, IMO. The Dems don't need to get more people in LA, Chicago and NY out to the polls, they need to convert moderates and independents who voted for Trump last time. Medicare For All, the Green New Deal and saying you are going to take people's guns away is NOT a platform to achieving this.
I am not saying such ideals are right or wrong....I am just making a political observation as to what it will take to oust Trump in 2020.
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/25/2019 10:57 AM |
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You may be right CK on your beliefs about Trump being re-elected if a far-left candidate is nominated, but you also may very well be wrong.
In fact, you may be very wrong as a centrist candidate may not inspire enough of a majority of either of the bases.
Making the statement of a personal belief, such as mine, doesn't mean $4it. Beliefs are not facts or true predictors of a future outcome.
It will be an interesting, and possibly very depressing and/or violent outcome in 2020.
I will cling to my hope for a better future, not just a less bad one ; ) |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/25/2019 11:15 AM |
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| CK - I'll turn that argument around on you a little bit. The swing states being where they are have been an area of economic angst. It's also where things like minimum wage, foreclosures etc. play huge and where there's a lot of resentment of big money that resides on the coast with banks, huge corporations etc. They feel like they've been overlooked by either party and gotten the raw end of the economic stick. A political platform (like Warren's) that addresses this may well be a big selling feature. Conversely, a platform of an establishment (moderate) candidate who indicates that things are just honkey dorey leaving big money to do as it pleases may get solidly rejected or lead to a meh, I'll just stay home. And there's a lot of Trump voters on record as actually liking Obamacare. The prospect of Medicare For All will not be lost of them. |
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